Tiger’s Last Interview - Prema Gauranga Das: Satsang on the Ganges and the Pursuit of Absolute Truth
This interview marks my last interview as the host of Policy Punchline. I will soon release another recording giving you an update about Policy Punchline’s future, but for now I just want to present to you the following conversation with Prema Gauranga Das.
Over the last three years with Policy Punchline, I’ve interviewed more than 150 guests, mostly public intellectuals, policy makers, journalists, investors… but this is my only interview with a monk – a Hindu monk.
Premji has been a resident monk at Sri Sri Radha Gopinath Temple in Mumbai with the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (also known as ISKCON) for the last 20 years. Like many of his peers, Premji completed his Bachelors degree in engineering from the University of Pune, a top university in India, and subsequently had a 4-year stint at India’s largest auto manufacturing company. But he quit his job to become a monk and to explore a more fulfilling and purposeful lifestyle, after being inspired by the teachings of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, and His Holiness Radhanath Swami.
Currently he is one of the research and implementation leads for ISKCON’s flagship project, the Temple of Vedic Planetarium, and is compiling his research on the Bhagavata Cosmology. His interest in India’s ancient tradition has also led him to curate tours for the contemporary western and worldwide audiences to authentically represent the larger Indian and Vedic culture, and that is how I met Premji.
I conducted the interview in the winter of 2019, right before Covid hit the world. I went on a yoga and meditation trip to India with Princeton University’s Office of Religion Life, led by two fantastic mentors, Vineet and Angela, with a group of 15 students. We traveled for a month during Christmas vacation, visiting yoga institutes, temples, ashrams, and cultural sites. We were accompanied by Premji, who helped plan our trip and guide us through the country, and through many conversations he gradually became an important mentor.
I went on that trip because I was at a confused moment in life. I had just started my junior year in college. By then I had also just finished a summer internship in private equity, and I wasn’t sure whether I was making the right impacts, whether I was happy, and which paths I should pursue. I wanted to pursue an economics PhD so I began to take on some very difficult math and statistics courses that were really pushing the boundary of my academic comfort zone. This podcast was also in its fledgling stage that I didn’t quite know how to grow it to the next level. There were just so many uncertainties in my life; I was constantly anxious; so I wanted to go on this yoga & meditation trip to take a break.
I was truly fortunate to have met Premji. He answered my questions on the Hindu faith, life, and my confusion about my own path forward. He was almost like a beacon of light, using simple principles to help me reason through some of the most difficult philosophical and religious questions that had puzzled me over the years:
Should we be pessimistic in light of the world’s unending sufferings?
Have we made progress as a humanity?
How flexible can one be with their spiritual and religious faiths?
What does it mean to be guided by God? Does one have to be guided by God or some form of greater power?
How do we control our desires? What does it mean to be happy?
What is one’s destiny and how do we discover our true calling?
…
Premji and I recorded this conversation towards the end of my trip. We were in Rishikesh, a city on the Ganges river and home to the famous Beatles Ashram. Overseeing sunset on the foothills of the Himalayas, we sat along the Ganges river and chatted for three hours. Hence we named the episode “Satsang on the Ganges,” where the word “Satsang” refers to the idea of group discussions or informal gatherings in hope to better understand the Vedic philosophy –– or, in essence, together pursuing the Absolute Truth.
You will hear us discussing many of these questions in the following conversation. And one of the most important ideas that changed me is the concept of dharma, which can be loosely translated to religion, or your destiny. It’s this idea that in the true sense means the constitutional position of an object. For example, the constitutional position of sugar is to be sweet; you cannot separate it. Likewise, each of us have our own dharma, our own duty and journey that we will have to go through. One’s dharma is not determined purely by one’s wealth or materialistic or physical state; it’s ultimately about your spiritual fulfillment. Whether you are rich or poor, healthy or sick, should not impact whether you can continue to pursue the Absolute Truths. Maybe you’re meant to be a billionaire; maybe you’re never meant to succeed; but either way, whatever physical journey you have should not hinder you from achieving greater enlightenment and fulfillment for yourself.
It’s a very powerful idea because it has allowed me to separate whatever that is happening in my day-to-day physical world, apart from what is going on in my mind. I became more freed from the mental burden of forcing myself to achieve certain worldly goals like I have to get this job or get this grade. It’s not a pessimistic attitude of giving up –– I still devote 120% of my passion into everything that I hope to achieve, but there is the subtle mindset shift that I realize that a lot of outcomes in this world are beyond my control, and the outcomes, no matter good or bad, will all eventually contribute to my greater journey and dharma. If anything, I became more passionate about life. But I have become more open-minded, calm, and fulfilled.
I know we often say these things like “everything is part of the journey,” but it’s hard to truly internalize these ideas and make them a part of our day-to-day mindset without having some greater intellectual or spiritual systems to back it up. You can’t just tell people to “be tough;” they have to go through hardship to become tougher. My India trip and my conversations with Premji allowed me to engage with these ideas about fulfillment and personal journey on a much deeper level that ultimately changed my life for the better.
It’s never my goal to try to change people’s lives via this podcast –– that would be too condescending to think that I should do that –– but I would be honored if the following interview could open a small window for you to explore some of these ideas. You may reach out to Premji by emailing him at prem.gauranga.rns@gmail.com. You may learn more about ISKCON via https://www.iskcon.org/ and https://iskconchowpatty.com/.
This is a very meaningful last episode for me. Thank you again for all your support, and here is my conversation with Premji:
Q: What is the Vedic tradition?
The Vedic Tradition tradition is much more than just a collection of rites and customs; it's a living, integrated, scientific philosophy and life-style meant to be applied. It implies a lifestyle based on the larger Vedic cannon, primarily the four Vedas: the Upaniñads, the Puräëas, Itihäsas, Ägamas etc.
There are six schools of philosophy in the Vedic religion – Säìkhya, Yoga, Nyäya, Vaiçeñika, Mémäàsä and Vedänta – each of which focuses on a different aspect of the Absolute Truth and has different interpretations of the Vedas. They understand or appreciate the Absolute Truth in that context.
Q: What is the Absolute Truth?
The Absolute truth is the summum bonum –– cause of all causes. It knows everything directly and indirectly, is cognizant of all minute details, and is fully independent. In the Vedic literature, it is said that the Absolute Truth Personality of Godhead is the chief amongst all living personalities.
"Since the complete whole, or the Absolute Truth, is the source of everything, nothing can be independent of the body of the Absolute Truth."
It’s important to connect with the Absolute Truth because that is how one becomes spiritually fulfilled and gains order in life. For example, if you wish to nourish the body, you eat, but you don’t feed each part of your organs individually. Similarly, a plant may have leaves and flowers, but you don’t water them individually; you water the roots. Likewise, if one wants to be satisfied, you should just perform activities to please the Absolute Truth, instead of trying to please everyone and every aspect in life.
Q: How could one connect with the Absolute Truths? Is it just through learning more about the scripture?
It's not really a question of learning, but a question of applying. The application is where the Vedic lifestyle is quite different from the Abrahamic religions in the sense it's more customized, more dynamic, more fluid, and it really depends upon time, place and circumstance. This is where the input of each individual person comes into picture and it makes it much more adventurous and dynamic for each person.
The Vedic lifestyle is really customized according to a person’s psycho-physical nature. It recognizes the fact that every person comes with their own capacities, competencies, conditionings, and psycho-physical nature, hence appreciating that aspect. Everybody is given a choice of how he would like to meet or reach the final destination.
One cannot complete the process alone. It's just like any education system – if you want to be a physicist or biologist, you don't become one by just reading books. Instead, you apply to an accredited university; you learn under a teacher, you have internships, and you're always upgrading yourself.
It’s crucial to be guided by a mentor because they will help you appreciate your psycho-physical nature, limitations, and strengths. It’s like when choosing your major in your university, you may be confused whether you’d like to be a doctor or engineer, a lawyer or economist, and that’s when it’s important to examine your disposition. One has to balance the liking for something with the proper competence and inspiration. The role of spiritual guidance is to help one strike that balance.
All this is the beauty of the Vedic religion. It does not discourage anyone from achieving the final purpose of life. Rather, it encourages each personality like a father would encourage his child to move forward in life.
Q: Does one have to become a monk in order to develop a relationship with the Absolute Truth?
No, it is rather a question of accepting one of the Vedic schools of thought. They are like different universities, and the point is to get admitted to one. Very few people really become monks in the true sense. 99.9% are people who have a family and do their day job.
The beauty of this whole process is that it's progressive. The point is not to achieve, but the point is to serve the Absolute Truth. And in service means relationship, and relationship means service. Even in life, it is really difficult to understand one single person completely, so naturally it’s not realistic to expect understanding the absolute, infinite person that is the Absolute Truth. But one can definitely get closer and closer to that goal, and hence it’s crucial to gradually develop a relationship with the Absolute Truth. And once that relationship is developed, it is very satisfying to the self.
Q: Does the Vedic religion believe in the separation between body and soul?
The body and the soul are deeply connected, but you should not mistake one for the other. It’s like identifying with the characters in the movie. When you see the hero having a romantic or an action scene, you feel thrilled. Why should you be thrilled? Because you can actually identify yourself with the hero and you think, "oh, it's me!"
Similarly with the body and soul, as soon as the soul is colored by the darkness of ignorance, it starts identifying with this body, which is simply a projected illusion like the movie. And the whole Vedic culture is to help purify your existence, to appreciate the fact that you are not the body, but rather the spirit soul which is beyond the body.
Q: What is “dharma?” And how does that imply equality amongst all?
We should appreciate the fact that the spirit soul is part and parcel of the Absolute Truth, and its happiness lies in serving the Absolute Truth, which is the goal of life. That is what is called as dharma – which in the true sense means the constitutional position of an object.
One’s bodily dharma could be to become a scientist, but the spiritual one is the same for everyone, which is to serve the Absolute Truth. And that is where the equality lies, among men and women, among rich and poor, among educated and uneducated. The equality is on the spiritual strata.
And as we strive in our lives, we're striving to achieve greater spiritual elevation. You may well have a poor person who is more spiritually enriched than a rich man, which is what actually matters. And the rich man would be fooled and delusional if he thinks that his bodily success means spiritual success.
This is not to demean materialistic success in any way. But the point is about priority. If a man is drowning, the priority is not to save his clothes; the priority is to save him. Similarly, it's not that material success is useless – it does matter – but the priority is the spiritual aspect.
You may be materially a failure and still be spiritually successful. You may be a failure in both, or achieve success in both. The choice is yours. But the point is, as far as material success and failure is concerned, you are really bonded by your bodily dharma. But as far as spiritual success is concerned, one can really use the phrase that "man is the architect of his own fortune." You have a choice regarding how you develop a relationship with the Absolute Truth.
Q: Don’t you think the idea of serving the Absolute Truth would be quite controversial amongst nonbelievers?
There is no true nonbeliever. It's a question of time. Everyone deep within the heart knows this fact. Usually people try to avoid the acceptance of an absolute personality because of the consequences that follow.
Even in a family, if you accept your father, you have to listen to what he has to say. And people usually don't like to be told what they're supposed to do. Once you accept there's an absolute personality, you have to accept what it says, and people don't like that.
But the regulations in the Vedas are actually there not to pull you down, but to make a consciousness to rise higher. This is an example of flying the kite. The string is not pulling the kite down, but helping the kite fly higher. Similarly, the rules and regulations in the Vedas that were given by the Absolute Truth are not bondages. They are actually there to head the soul, help you realize higher truths, and allow you to move up from a lower consciousness to a higher consciousness.
And the more you accept the Vedas, the more elevated your consciousness is, the more happy, blissful, and content you would be. Why should anyone listen to anyone? And everybody says, “freedom, freedom, freedom.” But freedom for what? Freedom from this engagement of space and time. That's the real engagement. You are actually trapped in space and time because you have this particular body. If you go beyond that, you go beyond space and time. That is real freedom.
Ultimately, it's not like one should just blindly listen to those rules. The whole point is to strike a relationship with the Absolute Truth – just like how Premji and I talked through these questions in the interview.
Q: How do we control our desires?
Desire is the prime symptom of life. You cannot be desireless. In the Vedic literature, the idea of “less-ness” has been mainly used to define or to express being free from material desires. But you must have desires – if not material, then spiritual. Your material desires basically means fulfilling the desires of the mind, body and ego.
The whole point is to fill yourself with so many spiritual desires that automatically your attachment for material desires is let loose. It is like filling the glass in such a way that nothing else fits in now. So when you fill yourself with so much spiritual desire, there is no way that the material desire can enter.
At the same time, the Vedic tradition does not negate one’s natural proclivities. The point is to realize you are not this body, but at the same time also to appreciate that though I am not this body, still I'm in possession of this body and I have to do something about it. So you have to make good use of the bad bargain of having this body.
So you may have a desire to have a good grade in your university education, and that is great. But at the same time, you should have an understanding of the limitations of your capabilities. That helps you to negotiate your desire, your results, and your expectations. Likewise, if you're a businessman, you want to make money. There is nothing wrong with businesses making money – that is the definition of business!
Q: How does the Vedic literature view the phenomenon of human sufferings?
You are in this world that is full of suffering. The world has old age, disease and death for any person. Everybody has to go through all these sufferings. Let them be rich, poor, educated, uneducated – it’s inevitable everybody in his life will face these different types of sufferings.
Why? Because that is how the material world is created – to finally make you realize that you are not the enjoyer. You are not the supreme enjoyer or the supreme controller. The problem is that everybody is trying to be the supreme enjoyer and controller, which they are not. One can only enjoy to the extent that one agrees to cooperate with the Absolute Truth.
Q: I really want to help with the world’s sufferings, but I often feel like I'm still not making enough of an impact or that the world is still filled with sufferings. And all this pains me. How am I supposed to feel about all this? Should I simply say “oh, that's just the nature of the world?”
Know definitely you should do your best, but also realize the limitations of what you're doing.
It's just like you can see that 100 people are drowning, but if you can save one, you definitely should. But if you have a boat that can carry all 100 drowning, then you should definitely do that, and it’s great that you have a boat.
It's also like going to the hospital and wanting to be sure that there are no patients. But hospitals are meant for patients. The objective of the doctor is to save as many as possible, but the medical world is a place of suffering; there'll always be people suffering. Again, people will always be suffering from old age, disease and death. They'll have these miseries caused by other persons, by their own bodies, and by natural disasters. No one can escape this. And that does not mean that you stop doing what you can to alleviate the misery.
Q: It seems that the Western world has the tendency to measure progress on a linear and materialistic basis. For example, Steven Pinker would say that the infant mortality rate has been going down, and fewer people are in extreme poverty, so we’ve in general made good progress as a humanity. But it often seems to me that our happiness and our spiritual fulfillment overall in the world have not improved. Do you think we have made progress?
That's why I said why we decide priorities. If you are trying to save the cloth of a drowning man, that's not intelligence. We are in this material world; everybody is suffering from old age, disease, death and all the other miseries that we talked about. And it's inevitable you're in this body that you will suffer these – you cannot escape it. So the whole point is, how do you escape? And no one's focusing on that.
Q: Isn’t that an overly pessimistic viewpoint? Is it justified to be pessimistic in light of all the problems?
This material world is just on fire – a forest fire. You know what a forest fire is. First, you don't need someone to start a forest fire. It just starts automatically. And if you want to extinguish a forest fire, you just can't do it with the help of the fire brigade. What you really need to extinguish a forest fire is the clouds pouring rain on the forest. This whole world is on fire, and not just any other fire; it's like a forest fire. So you're not being pessimistic; it is just the truth.
Prema Gauranga Das